“What if she sacrifices your body and draws a pentagram with your blood?”

I roll my eyes at this text from my roommate, who is genuinely concerned about the fact that I’m meeting a Satanist at Kayak’s. Why? Because, you know, journalism. In all seriousness, though, I’m curious about The Satanic Temple (TST) and the media coverage it’s been receiving recently for various social justice campaigns. Eve Doe,* an active organizer of St. Louis’ chapter, agreed to speak with me about TST’s beliefs.

I’m pretty excited about this—usually, asking someone if they’d like to be interviewed by a student newspaper leads to gagging sounds that probably mean “shut up, dweeb.” That’s never actually happened, but I’m sure someone I’ve talked to has thought that before. TST, however, responded promptly to my Facebook message and ensured me that yes, they’d love to talk, and that no, I was not a dweeb.

Eve texts me to tell me she’s running a little late, which gives me time to peruse TST’s website. Founded by Lucien Greaves (roughly around 2012 or 2013, Eve would tell me), TST strives to “encourage benevolence and empathy among all people” in addition to embracing “practical common sense and justice.”

It seems like a far cry from the misconception of “evil devil worshippers who eat people or whatever” that people equate with the word “Satanist.” And then, you know, the “Satan” element comes in. TST members do not believe that Satan is a real figure, but rather use the literary representation of Satan to represent their goals. From what I gather, Satanism is more about protecting individual sovereignty than “selling your soul” to the devil. TST doesn’t have a physical temple right now, but according to Eve, it’s hoping to possibly construct one in Detroit soon—that’s where the largest community of TST members is.

I also learn that there’s a distinction between TST and The Church of Satan, which practices LaVeyen Satanism. This sect is also rooted in individualism and sees Satan as a metaphorical figure. Unlike TST, though, it has a social Darwinist approach to human existence and follows “The Satanic Bible.” It includes magic and rituals, akin to the more traditional perception of Satanism.

I want to hear more about the religion’s core beliefs, but I’m also hoping that Eve will tell me about TST’s notorious reputation for subverting the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA) in order to fight for a more secular society. Funny enough, it’s the same law that Hobby Lobby used to deny birth control to its female employees.

Through its “Project Mary” campaign, TST has sued the state of Missouri in protest of the 72-hour waiting period before an abortion, in which the state of Missouri forces women to consider their decision to abort a child an additional 72 hours after receiving the initial consultation. TST argues that under RFRA protection, this mandate violates its principle that one has choice over one’s own body. Through this lawsuit, TST is demanding that women have the right to an immediate abortion. More recently, TST proposed installing a statue of the mythical creature Baphomet on Arkansas state capital grounds, arguing that if Christians can have the Ten Commandments on state capital grounds, TST can have its own figure.

Eve enters Kayak’s while I’m scrolling through TST’s online merchandise (shopsatan.com—grab a Satanic coloring book, if you can). Dressed in a T-shirt and jeans, she greets me warmly before pushing up her glasses. Her curly red hair is pulled back in a ponytail, as if to give a middle finger to the St. Louis humidity. She looks, well, pretty normal.

Throughout the conversation, I would learn a few things about Eve. She has a warm sense of humor, and she’s a wild gesticulator. She’s one of those people that you can talk to for a few minutes, but still feel like you’ve been friends with for a long time.

She’s involved in various social justice organizations in St. Louis, but doesn’t want to have her real name in the piece—she doesn’t want them to know that she’s a part of TST, since they might treat her differently. She’s exceedingly liberal, but still supportive of gun rights. She has a gun, on account of the fact that her life has been threatened more than once because of her identification as a Satanist. We’d end up talking for almost two hours, enough to write enough pages of transcript to fill an issue of Student Life. Here, I’ve included the bulk of one of the most fascinating conversations I’ve ever had.

Rima Parikh: So, Satanism. What kinds of Satanism are there, and how does TST distinguish itself? What does TST believe?

Eve Doe: Well, there are theistic satanic organizations—they believe in the supernatural [and see the devil as a real person/entity]. As far as TST goes, we are non-theistic. We pay homage to the literary Satan, from “Paradise Lost” and Dante’s “Inferno”—the eternal rebel-slash-hero. There are some things we have in common with the Church of Satan [which follows the Satanic Bible and LaVeyan Satanism], like the use of Satan as a symbol [as opposed to worshipping the “supernatural” devil]. We differ because The Church of Satan believes in social Darwinism. We’re the polar opposite of that. We believe that you should help the disenfranchised. Because that’s how you judge a nation—by looking at the way they treat their people.

RP: I assume you didn’t grow up with Satanism. What’s your background and how did that lead to joining TST?

ED: I came from a very Catholic family. When I was about 7 years old, my little brother was born. I was in a Catholic study class, and they were pressuring my parents to hurry up and get my little brother baptized, [saying] that if he didn’t get baptized he would go to limbo or purgatory—that was when Catholics still believed in that. I don’t know if they do anymore, because they change—this week, I don’t think they believe in purgatory. Anyway, I knew that was bulls——I knew that my little brother was the most innocent thing on the planet, and at 7 years old, that didn’t make any sense. And when I went home I said I would never go back. I became an atheist at age 7. I didn’t know what to call it.

RP: What brought the jump from atheism to TST’s Satanism?

ED: Growing up, I had always been involved in activism, [but what got me involved with TST] was the death of my son, who committed suicide after being bullied for being gay. I had a lot of anger after that, and I was looking for ways to proactively go after the issues that he had to deal with—when I started looking at the TST campaigns and philosophy, I was like, these are all of the things that I want to attack under one roof.

RP: So you would consider TST to have a very heavy focus on activism, then?

ED: Oh, very much. That’s our second tenet: that we are obligated to help others.

RP: TST’s tenets are very humanist—more spiritual than rigidly “religious.” Can you practice another religion, but still consider yourself a TST Satanist?

ED: Yeah, definitely. That’s the thing—when you look at the tenets, they could apply to any humanist, whether theistic or not. We do have Christian members, we do have Jewish members, we have grandmas, grandpas, progressives and libertarians—the main thing is that we agree on the tenets and those allow for individualism. There’s no “look” [to a Satanist]—we’re very diverse. We don’t all look like the stereotype—we don’t all look “goth.” Satanism, at its core, is about individualism. If you want to show up with black fingernails and black hair, that’s fine—if that’s you, that’s the whole point. If you don’t, that’s also fine. You do you. Whether you’re conforming or not, as long as you’re doing what makes you happy, and you’re not harming other people, go for it.

RP: So what is the purpose of bringing Satan into this?

ED: Again, Satan represents the individual. He’s not a real deity—he’s a metaphorical representation. Everyone’s always like, “You’re a Satanist? You worship Satan?!” But once we explain that Satan is a symbol, it makes more sense to them. They’re like, “Oh, the literary Satan, he’s a cool guy!” When you look at the Bible itself, Satan’s the bad guy and God is the good guy, but who’s got a higher kill count in the name of religion? What was Satan even accused of doing? Getting Eve to eat the apple so she could have knowledge? Gee, how horrible! As far as I’m concerned, he seems like a pretty great guy.

RP: Do you feel like attaching Satan to the organization pushes people away that would normally be interested in your campaigns or does it bring people in?

ED: Well, it brings more people in. We don’t recruit. None of our members are traditionally “joiners.” That’s important to know. So many new members say, “I have been an outcast my entire life, I’ve never found my group, I’ve stopped looking for my group.” And it’s interesting to get people that share that similar feeling. It winds up being really powerful. People that join TST don’t identify themselves as “joiners”—they’re interested in activism and they do what they can to help others but still want to preserve their individuality. Attaching Satan to the group brings people together—and despite our different ways of thinking, we can all be connected through this association with the symbol of Satan.

RP: Some people think Satanism is a joke or a ploy for attention. What would you say to them?

ED: Look, we all tend to have a good sense of humor, but we’re serious. We’re not trolling anyone, and it’s not a joke. We have political goals and we’re serious about our activism. There’s a means to an end, and it’s important to us.

RP: What does your general demographic look like?

ED: I would say for St. Louis, we are extremely diverse. We don’t have one dominating age group or ethnicity. As far as overall membership, our largest demographic is college-aged women.

RP: So, onto TST’s activism—tell us about the Project Mary campaign. How is TST using the RFRA to fight for abortion rights?

ED: The Project Mary campaign started when a woman named Mary, who lives in rural Missouri, wanted an abortion. She reached out to TST to help fun the trip [to St. Louis Planned Parenthood]. There, she was given pro-life materials and forced to go through a 72-hour [waiting period] to think about [her decision]. Well, she’s a member of TST. She had already explored the site and seen our RFRA letter—we have an RFRA letter that we give to any potential member or non-member to take to Planned Parenthood with them [defending our religious beliefs and requesting an immediate abortion]. One of TST’s tenets is that one’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s will and one’s will alone. If Hobby Lobby can claim, as a corporation, some sort of personhood and that they have feelings about religion, then that certainly opens the door for the rest of us. So if they’re going to keep these RFRA laws going, then it applies to us all, not just the “persecuted” majority. And we do feel very strongly that that is her deeply-held belief—that is my deeply-held belief—that her body is inviolable and subject to her will alone, along with the belief that we should base our opinions and decisions on the most current scientific information of the time.

RP: Is St. Louis the only place in Missouri that practices abortions, then?

ED: Yeah, that’s another thing. Mary, when she was going through this, there was only one Planned Parenthood in the state of Missouri that was practicing the abortion procedure. So with her being a single mom with a limited income—she has to call into work and come up with reasons as to why she has to be gone for three or four days, find child care, transportation—the works, you know. For someone like that, that’s slapping a big, red scarlet letter A on her. It’s really oppressive and discriminatory toward low-income women.

RP: So TST sued the state of Missouri against the 72-hour waiting period.

ED: Yes. The state of Missouri is making the claim that life begins at conception. They’ve been distributing medical information that has no basis in medicine whatsoever and forcing women to have a 72-hour waiting period before the procedure to guilt them out of getting an abortion. Even if [the distributed waiting-period materials] were factual information, I still wouldn’t agree with the waiting period, because nobody makes that decision lightly. By the time this woman has entered the clinic, she’s already thought about it. A lot. This is treating us like we’re dumb little women who can’t make our own decisions, and we need the government to control our uterus.

RP: When did TST sue the state of Missouri?

ED: I want to say all of that began April or May of this year. So it’s fairly new. The state of Missouri hasn’t been very responsive.

RP: So was she able to get the abortion then?

ED: I can’t say.

RP: Sorry, I probably shouldn’t have asked that question.

ED: It’s OK. This is something I’m allowed to tell, is that she also had—her last pregnancy was high-risk. She developed diabetes and started losing bone mass. She’s a tiny little thing. Just looking at her I was thinking, “Another pregnancy? This little girl might die.” So yeah, it’s just a matter of her choice. And I made sure from the get-go that she knew that at any time, she could back out, whether she didn’t want to go through the procedure or the court proceedings because all of this is about choice. Whatever she wants to do, we’ll support her. She’s a member of our community, and we’re going to take care of her.

RP: How do you guys choose what issues you want to fight for? Do you go on a case-by-case basis, and how do you find those cases?

ED: I have several specific Google alerts for the area. And then, I have a mini-network of active members who find cases on the Internet and are like, hey, check this out, and take it to the group. We put every case to an active member vote. We like to agree on the right thing to move forward with.

RP: In terms of other activism, what has TST done so far?

ED: Well, let’s see—in Orange County, Fla., we had someone come to us about passive Bible distribution in their school system, and we were asked to come in and distribute our TST coloring books. We put our proposal to the school asking that on the next distribution day, we wanted to be included. I don’t know if you’ve seen our coloring book, but it teaches “horrible” things, like how to cope with a bully, how to be a humanitarian, really horrible things that kids should not be learning. But yeah, so the school system decided to completely get rid of any sort of religious material distribution rather than let us distribute our coloring books. Which is fine, because ultimately, that’s what we want. We don’t feel that groups, religious groups, should be able to go into public schools and disseminate religious materials. Students can pray at school, they can say their pledge, all of that, if they want. If you want to fill your yard with 50 crosses or hang up posters of dead babies, go ahead. But when we’re talking about public, tax-paid arenas that represent the entire nation, you’ve got to keep religion out of it.

RP: Tell me about the sculpture of Baphomet, which was just completed. You guys originally wanted to put it by the Oklahoma state capitol, under the argument that if there’s a sculpture of the Ten Commandments on state grounds, Satanists should also have the right to have a religious symbol there as well. Is that correct?

ED: We petitioned [to have our Baphomet statue there], and I believe the request was put on hold. But then, some Christian on drugs ran over the Ten Commandments because “the devil told him to.” So then we thought, OK, well, if they don’t put them back up, we don’t need Baphomet to be there. We can put him somewhere else. Then, I think it was the governor of Arkansas, who was like, “Let me buy a new set of Ten Commandments with my own money to replace it.” And the state court decided that the Ten Commandments broke the Constitution. Now, we’re looking towards Arkansas because I don’t know if they have [the Ten Commandments there] already, or if they’re having them installed, so that’s where we want Baphomet to be headed.

RP: TST unveiled the Baphomet statue in Detroit to celebrate its completion. Was there any pushback from the community there?

ED: Oh, yeah. There was a pastor from the city of Detroit who was issuing death threats. He had a whole video against us with blood spatters and blood stains—people were commenting that they were going to set us on fire, that they would burn Baphomet—which, I mean, you can’t burn a bronze statue.

RP: That’s pretty terrifying. What kinds of discrimination do you guys face?

ED: We had a holiday display at the Florida statehouse [which also had other nativity scenes]. A “Catholic warrior lady”—that’s what she called herself—she went into the Florida statehouse and destroyed our display. She was arrested, but her case was dismissed because the jury decided it was a good Christian move to make. If the Satanists had destroyed a nativity display, we’d be in jail forever.

RP: TST isn’t against organized religion, though.

ED: No. You have the right to believe and practice your religion, but that doesn’t mean that your religion has the ability to encroach on our civil rights.

RP: Where do you see TST going as it develops?

ED: I would like to see TST being welcomed by other secular organizations. It’s nice to know that even if people don’t get it, they still support it. Personally, I’d like to see a chapter in every major city. We’re a new organization, but I think we’re in it for the long run. As long as we’re needed, we’ll be here.

* Name has been changed to protect privacy.