Comments on: Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell http://www.studlife.com/news/2009/10/14/don%e2%80%99t-ask-don%e2%80%99t-tell/ The independent newspaper of Washington University in St. Louis Sun, 12 Feb 2012 19:42:38 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: M http://www.studlife.com/news/2009/10/14/don%e2%80%99t-ask-don%e2%80%99t-tell/#comment-2630 M Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:34:47 +0000 http://www.studlife.com/?p=5725#comment-2630 Regarding John's comment: I would think the same could be said about "overtly heterosexual" military personnel who create an uncomfortable environment via heterosexist/sexist comments. Or, the same could be said about "overtly Christian" or "overtly non-Christian" military personnel who create an uncomfortable environment via their religious comments. Yet heterosexuals and religious people are allowed to openly serve and are not necessarily punished like openly homosexual military personnel are. Seems like discrimination to me. Regarding John’s comment:

I would think the same could be said about “overtly heterosexual” military personnel who create an uncomfortable environment via heterosexist/sexist comments. Or, the same could be said about “overtly Christian” or “overtly non-Christian” military personnel who create an uncomfortable environment via their religious comments.

Yet heterosexuals and religious people are allowed to openly serve and are not necessarily punished like openly homosexual military personnel are.

Seems like discrimination to me.

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]]> By: gay vet http://www.studlife.com/news/2009/10/14/don%e2%80%99t-ask-don%e2%80%99t-tell/#comment-1680 gay vet Mon, 19 Oct 2009 20:34:34 +0000 http://www.studlife.com/?p=5725#comment-1680 listen..I'm gay and I served over 10 years including a combat tour in the Army. I kept my sexual orientation under wraps because the motor pool or Bn. HQ was not the place to discuss what I did in the bedroom. I did my job to the best of my ability. I will be the first to say that if you did your job most didn't care less. I was SFC at work and my home life was just that. To the best of my knowledge no one knew about me until way after I got out. I'm all for gays serving. The ones going in right now KNOW the policy so keep your mouths shut and do your job. The Military isn't going take it if you start flaunting your sexuality. But most gays I knew while in kept their orientation off base and did their jobs..usually with high marks. Lets face the facts...gays have served their country and will continue to do so. My take is that if some gay in the military is flaunting their sexuality..then boot their a**** out ASAP but if they are abiding by the current policy set forth by the DoD then let them serve. I'm proud of my time in the Army and I kept thing very professional and 95% of the gays now serving have the same attitude. listen..I’m gay and I served over 10 years including a combat tour in the Army. I kept my sexual orientation under wraps because the motor pool or Bn. HQ was not the place to discuss what I did in the bedroom. I did my job to the best of my ability. I will be the first to say that if you did your job most didn’t care less. I was SFC at work and my home life was just that. To the best of my knowledge no one knew about me until way after I got out. I’m all for gays serving. The ones going in right now KNOW the policy so keep your mouths shut and do your job. The Military isn’t going take it if you start flaunting your sexuality. But most gays I knew while in kept their orientation off base and did their jobs..usually with high marks.
Lets face the facts…gays have served their country and will continue to do so. My take is that if some gay in the military is flaunting their sexuality..then boot their a**** out ASAP but if they are abiding by the current policy set forth by the DoD then let them serve. I’m proud of my time in the Army and I kept thing very professional and 95% of the gays now serving have the same attitude.

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]]> By: John http://www.studlife.com/news/2009/10/14/don%e2%80%99t-ask-don%e2%80%99t-tell/#comment-1543 John Mon, 19 Oct 2009 05:39:51 +0000 http://www.studlife.com/?p=5725#comment-1543 Adam, "Furthermore, Washington University is potentially protecting itself from costly lawsuits by explaining its actions in a letter." So you are saying: A gay student walks into the career fair, goes to the military recruiting booth, is denied an application because he says he is openly gay, and then sues WashU... You don't think that case would be dismissed immediatley (given the Solomon Ammendment and the Supreme Court's decision)? Yea.... right... I'm sure that's the reasoning that WashU used. "Finally, as somebody who knows Mr. Dresner and as an openly gay person myself, I assure you that the act of coming out and being openly gay is not something that people do in order to get a rise out of others." Is this a serious response to anything I said? Explain Dresner's purpose in going up to a recruiter and telling him he is gay and then asking for an application? Was he really planning on applying to be in the military? No. You admit the point I was making, which is: "Mr. Dresner doesn’t want to get a rise out of recruiters, Mr. Dresner wants to highlight the injustice of the DADT policy." Where you wrote "highlight the injustice". I wrote "get an article in StudLife to promote his new organization". I think we would agree that they are not mutually exclusive and are just very convenient. Either way... Keeping in mind injustice is your word - not mine. "There are many patriotic gay Americans who cannot serve in the military because they are gay and [this] policy [...] is certainly discriminatory." You do realize gay people can serve in the military right? You do realize the person quoted in the article served in the military and was gay? I'm glad we understand the policy. Your entire argument is that you believe a gay person has the FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT to disclose their sexual orientation to other people on the job (given that the prevailing view in the military is this could diminish performance). You refer to this as discimination. Am I wrong? Adam,

“Furthermore, Washington University is potentially protecting itself from costly lawsuits by explaining its actions in a letter.”

So you are saying: A gay student walks into the career fair, goes to the military recruiting booth, is denied an application because he says he is openly gay, and then sues WashU… You don’t think that case would be dismissed immediatley (given the Solomon Ammendment and the Supreme Court’s decision)? Yea…. right… I’m sure that’s the reasoning that WashU used.

“Finally, as somebody who knows Mr. Dresner and as an openly gay person myself, I assure you that the act of coming out and being openly gay is not something that people do in
order to get a rise out of others.”

Is this a serious response to anything I said? Explain Dresner’s purpose in going up to a recruiter and telling him he is gay and then asking for an application? Was he really planning on applying to be in the military? No. You admit the point I was making, which is: “Mr. Dresner doesn’t want to get a rise out of recruiters, Mr. Dresner wants to highlight the injustice of the DADT policy.”

Where you wrote “highlight the injustice”. I wrote “get an article in StudLife to promote his new organization”. I think we would agree that they are not mutually exclusive and are just very convenient. Either way… Keeping in mind injustice is your word – not mine.

“There are many patriotic gay Americans who cannot serve in the military because they are gay and [this] policy [...] is certainly discriminatory.”

You do realize gay people can serve in the military right? You do realize the person quoted in the article served in the military and was gay? I’m glad we understand the policy.

Your entire argument is that you believe a gay person has the FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT to disclose their sexual orientation to other people on the job (given that the prevailing view in the military is this could diminish performance). You refer to this as discimination. Am I wrong?

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]]> By: Hakim http://www.studlife.com/news/2009/10/14/don%e2%80%99t-ask-don%e2%80%99t-tell/#comment-1505 Hakim Sun, 18 Oct 2009 20:40:40 +0000 http://www.studlife.com/?p=5725#comment-1505 scott responds to John quotes… "and you want to give people who lose their discipline and morale simple because they’re near a gay person a big gun?" scott. if you were in the military you would know that the word gun is never referred to as a weapon but as a penis. so what do you mean big gun? scott responds to John quotes… “and you want to give people who lose their discipline and morale simple because they’re near a gay person a big gun?”

scott. if you were in the military you would know that the word gun is never referred to as a weapon but as a penis.

so what do you mean big gun?

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]]> By: imo http://www.studlife.com/news/2009/10/14/don%e2%80%99t-ask-don%e2%80%99t-tell/#comment-1504 imo Sun, 18 Oct 2009 20:29:18 +0000 http://www.studlife.com/?p=5725#comment-1504 Great win for the Right Side of History;; LOL In the navy Yes, you can sail the seven seas In the navy Yes, you can put your mind at ease In the navy Come on now, people, make a stand In the navy, in the navy Can't you see we need a hand In the navy Great win for the Right Side of History;; LOL

In the navy
Yes, you can sail the seven seas
In the navy
Yes, you can put your mind at ease
In the navy
Come on now, people, make a stand
In the navy, in the navy
Can’t you see we need a hand
In the navy

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]]> By: Joe http://www.studlife.com/news/2009/10/14/don%e2%80%99t-ask-don%e2%80%99t-tell/#comment-1463 Joe Sat, 17 Oct 2009 19:13:10 +0000 http://www.studlife.com/?p=5725#comment-1463 Great win for the Right Side of History Great win for the Right Side of History

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]]> By: Scott http://www.studlife.com/news/2009/10/14/don%e2%80%99t-ask-don%e2%80%99t-tell/#comment-1441 Scott Sat, 17 Oct 2009 03:20:56 +0000 http://www.studlife.com/?p=5725#comment-1441 John quotes: "The presence of such members adversely affects the ability of the armed forces to maintain discipline, good order, and morale." ... and you want to give people who lose their discipline and morale simple because they're near a gay person a big gun? Ex Navy: "It will likely turn into something where openly gay folks are allowed to serve, but not allowed to flaunt their gayness. Without sounding prejudiced the gay community is pretty good at displaying flamboyance." WSP Fail. Besides, unless they're having buttsex in front of their peers, they're not really flaunting their gayness, now are they? John quotes: “The presence of such members adversely affects the ability of the armed forces to maintain discipline, good order, and morale.”
… and you want to give people who lose their discipline and morale simple because they’re near a gay person a big gun?

Ex Navy: “It will likely turn into something where openly gay folks are allowed to serve, but not allowed to flaunt their gayness. Without sounding prejudiced the gay community is pretty good at displaying flamboyance.”
WSP Fail. Besides, unless they’re having buttsex in front of their peers, they’re not really flaunting their gayness, now are they?

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]]> By: ex navy guy http://www.studlife.com/news/2009/10/14/don%e2%80%99t-ask-don%e2%80%99t-tell/#comment-1427 ex navy guy Fri, 16 Oct 2009 19:52:05 +0000 http://www.studlife.com/?p=5725#comment-1427 I think many of the above strings have really good points. John is coming from a place of truth and patriotism as is Adam. No reason to belittle each other. This is heavy stuff with lots of emotion and rational thought mixed in. It does seem counterintuitive to allow openly gay people in the military or in combat roles, but it probably seemed that way years ago with allowing woman serving side by side with men in combat roles. No one wants their military to be less effective. We all want equal rights as long as those rights don’t hurt the innocent or hurt the military’s mission effectiveness. A strong military is more important to most Americans then political correctness. I think eventually, and hopefully only after the current wars are over, the “don’t ask policy” will give way or evolve. It will likely turn into something where openly gay folks are allowed to serve, but not allowed to flaunt their gayness. Without sounding prejudiced the gay community is pretty good at displaying flamboyance. I think many of the above strings have really good points.
John is coming from a place of truth and patriotism as is Adam. No reason to belittle each other. This is heavy stuff with lots of emotion and rational thought mixed in. It does seem counterintuitive to allow openly gay people in the military or in combat roles, but it probably seemed that way years ago with allowing woman serving side by side with men in combat roles.
No one wants their military to be less effective. We all want equal rights as long as those rights don’t hurt the innocent or hurt the military’s mission effectiveness. A strong military is more important to most Americans then political correctness.

I think eventually, and hopefully only after the current wars are over, the “don’t ask policy” will give way or evolve.
It will likely turn into something where openly gay folks are allowed to serve, but not allowed to flaunt their gayness. Without sounding prejudiced the gay community is pretty good at displaying flamboyance.

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]]> By: future doc http://www.studlife.com/news/2009/10/14/don%e2%80%99t-ask-don%e2%80%99t-tell/#comment-1425 future doc Fri, 16 Oct 2009 19:20:06 +0000 http://www.studlife.com/?p=5725#comment-1425 I like "Iraq Vets" idea. Instead of don't ask don't tell policy just let let a person declare their sexual orientation when signing up and after that subsribe to the policy of " NO ONES BUSINESS. Lets call it NOB. I like “Iraq Vets” idea. Instead of don’t ask don’t tell policy just let let a person declare their sexual orientation when signing up and after that subsribe to the policy of ” NO ONES BUSINESS. Lets call it NOB.

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]]> By: Bill http://www.studlife.com/news/2009/10/14/don%e2%80%99t-ask-don%e2%80%99t-tell/#comment-1396 Bill Fri, 16 Oct 2009 07:34:57 +0000 http://www.studlife.com/?p=5725#comment-1396 As a current member of the military, I can say that the discrimination is definitely still there, but I think it's a policy that needs to go. Yes, it will cause some problems at first, but it'll lead to better policies with recognizing gay marriage in the military (notice the desegregation back in the Civl Rights Era occurred in the military first). So while it may seem backwards to some, the policy had its purpose, but that purpose no longer applies. Little known fact: The policy was actually lifted at the start of the first Gulf War to prevent stop-loss for troops deploying that were declaring their homosexuality to get out of deployment. Did the lift on that ban hurt mission effectiveness? I think not. That was our last successful military operation, getting Iraq to back off of Kuwait. As a current member of the military, I can say that the discrimination is definitely still there, but I think it’s a policy that needs to go. Yes, it will cause some problems at first, but it’ll lead to better policies with recognizing gay marriage in the military (notice the desegregation back in the Civl Rights Era occurred in the military first).

So while it may seem backwards to some, the policy had its purpose, but that purpose no longer applies.

Little known fact: The policy was actually lifted at the start of the first Gulf War to prevent stop-loss for troops deploying that were declaring their homosexuality to get out of deployment. Did the lift on that ban hurt mission effectiveness? I think not. That was our last successful military operation, getting Iraq to back off of Kuwait.

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